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ariayde16
  Unread post  Post subject: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:58 pm

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Hi, I’m Ali Riayde and recently I’ve become very confused about my what my AHI number actually is. On my CPAP prescription, it says I’ve got 10 AHI in NREM and a staggering 35 AHI in REM. However, I don’t know what my AHI value is. I only know what my AHI values for REM and NREM are. So, is there a way to calculate my AHI from just the 2 aforementioned values? Is there another way to get the AHI? Unfortunately, I can’t just ask my doctor or my respiratory therapists because they’re in Canada and I’ve moved back to the United Arab Emirates. So I have to resort to asking the good folks over on this forum my question. Also, if you happen to read this and know someone qualified on this forum that can answer my question, please notify them to have a look at this post. For context, I’ve was struggling with the typical severe symptoms that come with severe untreated sleep apnea and then I got referred to a sleep specialist, went to a sleep lab, got cpap, and I have been on it for more than a year now ( a year and a month). I can safely say that my life has changed for the better because of cpap and I’m very happy with it, even though the benefits came gradually over a period of 9 months instead of just coming altogether in 1 or 2 months like what happens to some lucky cpap people. I just had some serious doubts recently about if I really need cpap and if I really have an issue with sleep apnea at all because I’ve read some research detailing how REM related sleep apnea isn’t important and how it doesn’t require treatment. Naturally, after reading that brief piece of research, I became very worried because my staggering 35 AHI was in REM and I always believed that was the proof I had that sleep apnea was the root of all my symptoms before I went on cpap. Of course, I am aware that the AHI value has to be above 30 to be classified as severe OSA, so I naturally assumed that I had severe sleep apnea when my doctor told me I had serious problems with my sleep, when my respiratory therapists told me the same thing, and when I did my own research and found the aforementioned fact. So, is my sleep apnea severe and should I stick to cpap? Or should I quit cpap because my sleep apnea isn’t severe and it’s not worth the trouble? Also, if you’re someone who has similar data and have been on cpap, can you please share your experience and advise me on what to do? Here’s the link to the research I was talking about: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... n_sectitle


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diamaunt
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:08 pm
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What does it matter what your untreated sleep apnea is?

All that matters now is what your *treated* sleep apnea is.

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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:12 am

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I suppose your correct. I'm just curious really.


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Pugsy
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:18 am
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My non REM AHI was around 12 or 14 I think.
My REM AHI was 53.
This is actually very common and you come out of it with the category of severity of the worse part of things.
So....severe OSA....if words matter.

You still need cpap.
Quit looking for excuses to not use cpap.

You need REM sleep and with that many apnea events happening when in REM there is a good chance you will get bounced out of REM or have oxygen level drops and you won't get the needed cycles of sleep for the restorative powers of sleep to work their magic.


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:01 am

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Hey Pugsy! Thanks for looking into this post. Between you and me, I was hoping you would come across this post. Yeah, I agree. To tell you the truth, it's my mom who's pushing me to stop using cpap. She hates it and has very little to no education on sleep medicine (she's a good dentist though). I personally love cpap and it has changed my life gradually over a period of 1 year and 1 month. Quite frankly, I can now understand why my sleep specialist over in Canada and my respiratory therapists took my symptoms and case very seriously. 35 AHI in REM is terrible and being essentially deprived of REM sleep is a good recipe for disaster. You know, now that you mention it, I remember my doctor talking to me about Oxygen blood level drops being a very serious issue that was caused by my 35 AHI in REM. Anyways, should I just ignore that research I linked and my mom and stick to cpap as if I've never come across said research? Do you have any critcisms about the research I linked above? Personally, I don't know what to make of it because I'm about to start dental school and I have no clue about sleep medicine and how it works, which makes me unqualified to study the research I mentioned and comment on it.


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Pugsy
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:33 am
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I think that author said a lot of nothing. More like thinking out loud and not very clear thinking at that.

There is so much more to OSA than just the AHI and I really wish people wouldn't just look at the AHI numbers. Numbers don't always give us the big picture when it comes to just what is happening to our bodies when we don't breath OR SLEEP optimally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gie2dh ... e=youtu.be

Watch the above video.

Read this and pay special attention to why we need the normality of the sleep cycles.
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/article ... tity-sleep
Substitute anything you want to for alcohol that can disturb our sleep...be it pain, OSA, pets, insomnia, bed comfort...anything.

Ignore your mom and dentist. Embrace your cpap and be thankful that you have a problem that is easily fixed while you sleep and be thankful that you can get a semblance of decent quality sleep.

Without good quality sleep none of this matters. Just ask the people who have chronic insomnia and don't even have OSA. They feel like crap all the time.


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 pm

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Pugsy, thanks for your invaluable advice. You're great. I know you from some of Lanky's YouTube videos. You saved me from myself and bad influencers like that author, my mom, and her 'sources'. I've gotta admit that I'm incredibly lucky that I live in a time where cpap is a thing. Imagine having severe OSA three hundred years ago and not being able to treat it. I guess we're all lucky to live in a time where sleep labs, cpap, sleep doctors, and more exist to treat these serious issues.


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diamaunt
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:37 pm
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> it says I’ve got 10 AHI in NREM

MORE than enough to warrant a cpap, forget the REM AHI.

an AHI of 10 during NREM is like having someone (your crazy mom?) poking you with a sharp stick every 6 minutes.

What kind of *REST* are you going to get like that?

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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:57 pm

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Still, REM AHI is very important. Not having REM sleep is like not having any sleep at all because REM sleep is still one of the major components of sleep. If you don't get the full cycles of sleep, then you might as well not sleep at all. Read the article and watch the video Pugsy linked and you'll see why REM sleep is so important in maintaining the sleep cycles of any human. Thanks for taking the time read and reply though, it means a lot. Not everyone is so willing to take time off to help people like us with their questions and doubts.


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diamaunt
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:59 pm
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ariayde16 wrote:
Still, REM AHI is very important. Not having REM sleep is like not having any sleep at all

Not true.

ariayde16 wrote:
because REM sleep is still one of the major components of sleep. If you don't get the full cycles of sleep, then you might as well not sleep at all.

Not true.

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Pugsy
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:37 am
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All the sleep cycles are important in their own way and in conjunction with the normal progression of all the sleep stages.

You can live and sleep without a sleep cycle but it wouldn't equal "might as well not sleep at all" kind of thing.

It isn't optimal but it isn't as bad as no sleep at all. Nothing is that bad.


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:23 am

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Alright. I was wrong in making these statements. Like Pugsy said, all sleep cycles are important in their own ways. So not having one is still very bad, just not as bad as not having or not getting any sleep at all.


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:13 pm

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Pugsy wrote:
I think that author said a lot of nothing. More like thinking out loud and not very clear thinking at that.


Wait, which 'author' are you referring to? Me or the author of the 'research' I linked in one of my posts?


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Pugsy
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:55 pm
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ariayde16 wrote:
Pugsy wrote:
I think that author said a lot of nothing. More like thinking out loud and not very clear thinking at that.


Wait, which 'author' are you referring to? Me or the author of the 'research' I linked in one of my posts?



Not you.
The author of the research of research you linked to. :lol:


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:05 am

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Alright, just to clear up any confusion, let me make some concluding statements: a) there's much more to OSA than mere AHI numbers b) having high AHI in REM and low AHI in NREM is normal because it's rather common c) having high AHI numbers in either REM or NREM is very serious and is the reason why patients suffer from high levels of depression, chronic fatigue, brain fog, and etc. d) not having REM sleep due to high AHI is bad, but not as bad as not having any sleep at all. I think that's it. Also, I always wanted to ask you Pugsy, are you a respiratory therapist, sleep specialist, or a sleep lab tech? Last thing before we conclude this discussion, I should stick to CPAP because my sleep apnea is severe and requires treatment to correct my serious symptoms. If I were to quit CPAP, I would go back to experiencing my miserable symptoms before I got diagnosed, and subsequently treated with CPAP. I think that's it for this discussion.


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Pugsy
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:53 am
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You pretty much got it now.


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:21 am

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Thanks


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:16 am

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Pugsy wrote:
Embrace your cpap and be thankful that you have a problem that is easily fixed while you sleep and be thankful that you can get a semblance of decent quality sleep.

Without good quality sleep none of this matters. Just ask the people who have chronic insomnia and don't even have OSA. They feel like crap all the time.


Hi Pugsy. Sorry to bring this up more than two weeks later, but I reviewed this thread and, forgive me if I am being a little picky here, I noticed that you used the phrase, "semblance of decent quality sleep". Does this mean that the sleep I am getting with CPAP is not that good because it is supposed to resemble normal non-OSA sleep, however it does not because CPAP sleep is not equivalent or better than normal sleep without OSA? Sorry, just got confused and would love some clarification if you read this.


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Pugsy
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:15 pm
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No. I didn't mean that sleep with cpap was inferior to sleep without cpap (for those who don't have OSA and thus wouldn't be needing cpap).
Probably a poor choice of words on my part. Now that I reread it again I don't know what I was trying to convey except that sleep with cpap when we need it is going to be a whole lot better than sleep without cpap.

We don't get a choice ....to get good quality sleep we simply need some help with the mask and machine.

Just omit the term "semblance" from what I said. It was a poor word choice.


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ariayde16
Unread post  Post subject: Re: NREM AHI vs REM AHI  |  Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:06 pm

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Thanks Pugsy. I did not intend to correct you, just wanted to clear up some confusion because the wording made it sound a certain way that did not match what you said earlier about CPAP being essential for good quality sleep. It just seemed contradictory, that is all. Thanks for the kind reply. It is much appreciated.


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